Blog #8, Wednesday, February 5, 2014. Engine removal from bus, cleaning and inspection & inspection of engine compartment

Well, I just got another lesson in Blogging, my first for this new program I am using, www.blogger.com.  I was writing over 1 ½ hours waiting for time to leave to go to Gene Russell’s place of business in NC to pick up two aluminum valve covers for my new engine.   I have one aluminum valve cover and one steel cover, that stinks, locks like hell and the steel cover will leak oil eventually as they do not seal very good, they do not clamp down very good as they are too thin.

Well all was going well, I wrote several hundred words already as you know I can, I saved it, (I thought in a separate area) BUTTTTTTTTTT  when I come this evening to continue I found out that I had to publish it also then make adjustments as this FREE program does not save a DRAFT like Wordpress does!!   Wordpress does not present videos which I want to also do and Blogger.com does??  JC, you just can’t win.  This is what you put up with for free stuff, especially software.  Butt wipes.   Anyhow I have to rewrite what I wrote today like I did before on wordpress.  Well I have made up my mind to write all my stuff from now on in a word document program and copy and paste in the blog after and add my photos etc. after I copy my text into the blog.  I will outsmart these butt wipes if it kills me. Lol

OK, back to business.  I spent several days studying my engine lay out before I attempted to unhook my engine to pull it out.  Now again, my information is intended for newbie’s, you old-timers will get bored, (good bye) I am sure I will bore you to death.  I sat down and figured how I was going to make a engine dolly to roll out the engine after I jacked it up enough to release it from the engine framing and then be able to roll it out of the engine compartment, but all this has to be done by me all alone, (as usual) and all this information is intended to anyone needing to do this alone.  

You will be surprised how many friends will be busy on a project such as this when needed, then again maybe you have good friends that will just jump right in and go for it just to be a great friend.  A piece of advice though, do not allow any drinking of alcohol until the end of the work day.  Working on these damn ole buses is one dangerous son of a gun and gravity of a falling part will kill in a second. You will have to live with the pain of a loss of a life, limb and law suit for the rest of our life, think it over.  One reason I work alone, and no kids, grandkids etc, in work area ever!!!!

Now back to business, I designed in my head a engine cradle that would also have a area for 4 jacks that would be placed to jack up the engine on the 4 corners of the oil pan.  You will see how this set up is used when under the engine photos are seen.  NOTE: the extension on the left of this photo was intended for the support of the transmission, this is not needed, it is a waste of time and material and I am passing this onto you.  The engine is quite capable of supporting the transmission without this extra support which also hinders hooking up under the bus, eliminate this from your cradle if you design one similar one to this.  I will measure my cradle one day and include a drawing, this worked for me, not probably the best but worked for me.

I had to place this cradle under the engine a couple of times to get the exact location of where the jacks would sit on the cradle, you have to work off center line of the engine and the cradle to keep everything on a straight controllable plane, it will be easier to control cradle movement and placement of the jacks.  It took nearly a 7 lb. roll of mig wire to weld this baby up, overkill I am sure, that is me though.  All metal is 1/4 inch thickness, steel wheels and 4 ton jacks.  This will lift and move your engine without much effort and remember you are lifting this engine only about 3/8 inches total.  A guide to keep the jacks in place will be will be shown in photos. 

This is the best photo I have of the 4 jack locating bars I welded to the engine cradle I made to keep the jacks in place from moving around but enough movement to let them center under the engine.  you have to locate them and tack weld them in place when the cradle is located and centered under the engine where it will be to hook up the engine to.  But everything has to be done on the center line of both parts, you cannot hurry this up, you will be on your back, it will be uncomfortable but that is the fun part, and well worth the effort taking your time to do. 

This is a photo of the jack supports that are mounted on all four corners of the engine oil pan that support the 4 ton jacks and they are supported by the engine cradle.  Note the bracket on one corner of the oil pan designed to keep the top of the jack from moving around when the engine is moved out, the base of the jack is also kept in a locking position with welded clips to secure it in position to also keep it from slipping or moving when engine cradle is moved. All handles are located so operator, (ME) can crawl under and jack easily a little at a time to keep the engine level as you jack up to about 3/8" total in height. You only want to lift the engine high enough to miss any obstructions of the engine framing and not hit the overhead framing with the engine governor.  It is kind of close in there if you are not observant and careful. 

The front corner of the engine supported by a jack mounted similarly to the back end.  You will have to remove two bolts on each corner of the oil pan, use a piece of cardboard and cut it out to a template to use for the brackets needed to fit in the corner to hold the jacks in place when the brackets are bolted in place.  this too will take time, but well worth the effort.  

Looking upward view of photo of one of the two corners of brackets used to support the end of a 4 ton jack used to jack up engine on the engine cradle.  

Two opposite corners have different design brackets needed to support the 4 ton jacks, remove 2 corner bolts, use cardboard template to fit bracket then make out of 1/4" plate metal and rebolt after making a tubing insert for the jack head to fit into to locate jack from slipping when used. 

So now I bolt on the brackets to the bottom of the 4 corners of the oil pan for the jacks for lifting in Unison, and secure the jacks from slipping with welded clips. 

But I need to somehow secure the engine to the engine cradle for some kind of safety to protect the engine from sliding off the jacks which the heads of are only ¾” in diameter holding up a 2300 lb. engine!!  I used heavy duty nylon ratchet straps, 2 of them and used 4x4 above the valve covers to protect them from being damaged from the straps being tightened down and you will.

In my investigation of how I would remove my particular engine out of my engine compartment I 

realized that in running my new wiring harness from the front of the bus through a 2” conduit to protect the wiring from varmints eating through it.  I made a 90 deg. Corner at the end of the run to go into the back engine power panel that was in the way of the air horn.  So I had to open up the back bedroom floor compartment access to the engine to remove the engine air horn and then that problem was solved.  Of course the air horn was on tight as the bolts had welded themselves to the engine. Then I also realized there is only about ½” of height to jack up the entire engine and because your engine governor would hit the frame as well so you had to jack up only about 5/16” to slide out the engine.  Piece of cake!!  I made sure everything was unhooked, all the engine linkages, air lines, fuel lines wires etc. I checked several times for anything small and hidden and there will be, a wire here or there etc.

Here is what I had to study for a few days, what a mess to view for the first time as an amateur not knowing crap from shinola as to what to do.  The more I studied the more I seen problems and started to unconnect things one at a time and coil them up, hope I remember what they do when I reassemble the engine.  Oh well, back to the story.  Here was the starting point anyhow.  Scary as hell to anyone not ever doing such a thing.

Here is a side view of my task at hand, I do a lot of sitting and viewing, looking for someone to stop over and say "here I am Gary, lets do this and this"!!  Yea, right.

OK, OK, Now I see a big problem, gotta remove the darn ole rubber air intake and (air horn), the gray tubing on the right of photo feeds all my wiring I re-ran 10 years or so ago to my engine compt. power panel and was surely in the way of removing my engine with the airhorn and intake elbow mounted to the engine, so I had to remove and this eliminated all of the stress.  Had a hell of a time removing the air horn, the bolts welded to the engine from heat etc. but I did it.  Removing engine now would be a piece of cake,  The overhead clearance now was still gonna be tight but doable if I only lift the engine about 3/8" which is more than enough to move the engine out and miss anything else on the engine framing.

Air horn removed, obstruction exists no more to hit the wiring harness tubing

Close up view of engine nearly ready to pull out on engine cradle

Engine / cradle ready to hook unto lawn mower for removal from engine compartment

Well it took several days of thinking what in hell I was going to do with the weather coming and going bad at times, I had to rearrange the mess I had back here so I move the tent structure at the left in this photo to the direct center of the bus to give me 10' extra length of working space that I could enclose if necessary and coverage from the sun etc.  Then I just sat there for days and studied what to unhook on the engine, scared as hell as to what to do, not wanting to do anything wrong, and especially not to get HURT!!

Now everything looks ready, I hooked on the towing hitch I designed for the cradle, get my 22 hp lawn mower, hook it up to the towing bar of the cradle and pull out the engine, very slowly and she crept out like a thief in the night.  I pulled her out until I reached a dip in the concrete I could not pull up and stopped.  This was far enough out in the yard to pressure wash and inspect my original engine.  I unhooked the lawnmower, undid the towing hitch and then did 3 freaking back flips around the driveway!!  Only kidding, I have a hell of a time walking for god’s sake with 2 back surgeries.

Just pulling my old engine out for cleaning and inspecting, I am so glad I did this, it is a time consuming and very expensive operation but time and money ahead one day, I hope.  My trusty ole tractor had her hands full doing this job, those two nylon straps sure did a good job keeping the engine upright as I moved, VERY SLOWLY out into the sun for the first time. 

Another view of the engine being pulled out of her resting place with my 22 hp. Troybuilt lawn mower.  She had her hands full, but I did not overwork her any. 

Here is how it looks with the extra tent coverage I have to work under when I hand push the wheel engine in and out now which is nice out of the sun and I can put a cover over the front if needed but I don't work out there is it is under 40 deg, I am too dam old now, have to pee all the time if I do. 

I looked over my old engine, man what a mess, but got out duct tape and taped off every orifice, open pipe etc. so that I could pressure wash the engine and get whatever years of filth she had on her and inspect her from top to bottom.  I let her dry in the sun but kept looking and then when dry enough I wanted to tear into inspecting of her. 

While waiting for my engine to dry from pressure washing I took a good look at my engine compartment to see what needed to be "FIXED" in there, I saw things I wanted to improve on, I still need to do some overhead improvements to this day but at least I have the rest of the compartment done and painted up with a few improvements I am pleased I did. 

I had to add some paint to frame after rework, ole surface rust was starting to take over and I sure did not want that to happen.  Sure looks a lot better but rework on the overhead still needs to be done and will before inserting new engine.  Will repaint areas of the engine compartment if needed to cover weld splatter. 

One of the improvements besides rewelding every seam was to include a "guide rail"on each side of the main engine motor mount rail that will guide the engine in and out straight when removed or reassemble so a person can do this alone and not have to worry about the engine getting hung up on a piece of framing on the way out.  This is done for those working alone which is me as usual. but helpful in keeping the engine straight for assembly to her final resting place.  I will add a little grease on the sides to make slidding easier as well. 

The first thing I did was take off the air box inspection covers located right under the exhaust manifold.  There is 3 of the on each side of the engine.  These inspection air boxes allow you to inspect for broken rings, liners etc. inside of the engine that you suspect may have happened causing noise or loss of oil pressure etc.

This photo is one of the 3 air box covers on one side of the engine located right under the exhaust manifold, you are able to view the piston liner which is closed to the photo (black), the piston itself (silver) and as you rotate the engine the actual rings.  Normally you will be able to see any damage to one of these 3 parts and the evidence of any damage will accumulate in the covers of these openings.

 

Well, I got a hell of a surprise, Inside fewer than two of my inspection covers was huge chunks of liners that had been smashed and thrown into these covers.  I was devastated, pissed and more pissed.  What to hell else could happen??  I took photos, went on line and sure enough busnut Clifford Allen come on board and told me these were definitely chunks from a broken liner and the engine was probably needing rebuilding !!! JC!! I thought!!  Oh Crap, I got Stuck again. 

Original air box cover that is mounted about 40 deg. on side of the 8V71 engine designed to accumulate broken parts if that happens of liners, pistons or rings.  They will stay in the cavities of these covers like I found of the parts I on my old engine. 

Parts found in one of my air box covers, now you can see my concern when found, butttttt, I did not visually see any broken parts through the inspection port hole and should of taken more time to investigate and think on.  I still believe my old engine is good as I did not find any evidence of damage looking through the air box inspection hole or any evidence of broken metal in the oil pan, none!!!

This was the metal found in the second air box cover that just cinched I had a problem and all panic hit me at once.  I just knew I was doomed, AGAIN!!  NOT!!

 Well, Eric Brown & Ole Kentucky Steve both seen this information on the Eaglesinternational Bulletin board and called me and told me to call Ed Brenner and talk to him about his 8V71 Engine he was selling for nearly 1 year and was recently rebuilt 49,000 miles ago.  So I did, I made a deal and glad I did as only a couple of days later a young fellow, Josh Brannon called him and wanted to buy Ed’s engine and Ed told him it was sold to me and he would not back out of the deal.  I love you ED.  Don’t feel bad now for Josh, I sold him my other engine I had for sale that had Jake brakes at a reduced price to pass on the good deal that Ed gave me on the engine I needed for my bus and now Josh is putting my engine I had for sale in his band bus as I write this blog.   So we all made out I feel and hope everything works out for all of us.

Well I found out from Kentucky Steve that I needed to remove my bellhousing from my old engine to put on Ed’s engine to transport the engine safely to my house to prepare to clean and paint etc.  Little did I know I would find more problems when I removed parts from my old engine that would not be useable on the new engine and need replacing to work on the new engine?  I found out fast as I started to remove the parts needed, the only usable part I would have really would be the bell housing itself and the transmission.  The clutch, clutch plate, and flywheel would all need replacing, at a cost if purchased new way more than the cost of the engine I just purchased. 

I got a good money saving deal on a new clutch plate from one of my vendors that I have been getting parts from for several years, I purchased a new clutch plate and clutch at vendor cost and saved over $250, and my good friend Kentucky Steve brought me a flywheel he did not need as he installed a automatic Allison 740 transmission in his converted bus, lucky bum.  So now all I have to do is get the flywheel Steve brought me surface ground to remove any minor surface stress lines in the plate and also a saving of over $500 -$2,000 according to serial number of engine if purchased from a Detroit Dealer (I love you too Steve)!!  So now you can see the importance of good deals in this hobby.  You need more than deep pockets; you just need good friends as well.

Photo BELOW of the flywheel I removed off my old engine for my new engine, the stress cracks on my old engine are so bad & the cracks so so deep that they penetrate through the flywheel into the bolt holes that support the flywheel,  This makes the flywheel unacceptable and unusable for use.  This also means that someone rode this clutch till it got so red hot that it was near exploding, just think about that one the next time your ride your clutch for a length of time or don't double clutch and overwork your clutch for any reason.  This is not cheap, replacement new is from $500 - $2000 depending upon the year and model of your bus from Detroit Dealer.  Keep that in mind too next time you want to be a hot shot with that left foot.  Keep it off the damn clutch unless you are shifting!!

Another close up of millions of heat stress cracks in my flywheel, there was 6 that were straight through the flywheel that could easily caused the flywheel to fly apart under use!!!!  anytime!!!

Now what do you think when you see an actual heat stress crack extended down to the bolting surface of the flywheel, think this should be used.  If I did not tear down this engine, I would not have known this condition existed, you can easily see what no one will tell you about when you buy used. 

I removed the transmission, cleaned it, inspected it, covered it, removed the flywheel, inspected it, found it to be not usable for service so replacement had to be done, as well as the clutch and clutch plate.  Then I removed the bellhousing, cleaned it, re-tapped re-tapped every hole, painted it and prepped it for remounting when I received my gasket set sent to me by busnut Clifford Allen, at no cost to me. This was  another good deal saving me money.

Removal of my Bellhousing from my old engine, need to clean, retap and repaint for use on new 8V71 from Ed's when ready. 

Every hole on bellhousing was re-tapped to make assembly easier, all holes nice and clean with no dirt and debris in them and what a difference in re-assembly this makes. 

This blog will only show the removal of the parts mentioned above & the damage of parts mentioned of parts above. 

NOTE: photos will be posted in my Photobucket website as there is too many to post on my blog, I will post a direct link pertaining to special photos for each blog to minimize your searching time in looking for what I was talking about in a particular blog.  I hope newbie’s in particular will appreciate the time I am putting into this information for them to consider in doing anything I have done at this time.  Remember, What I have done does not necessarily mean that is the best way to do things, that only means it is the way I done them and they worked for me and I wanted to share them with you and my mistakes as I made as well.  A starting point is great for anyone that they can build on themselves and improve using their own ideas, but a starting point is a lot of help and encouragement to get going. NOTE: I have included most of the important photos here in this post but have yet to post any in Photobucket, I am too tired to do that now.  This post is extremely long and my thought process is tired out. Thank You for understanding. NOTE: photos have now been posted to Photobucket that are not in this blog if you are interested, go to:

http://s629.photobucket.com/user/busconverter101/media/Removing%20the%208V71%20from%20the%20our%20bus/P1000380-1.jpg.html?sort=9&o=0

  

Before I close today’s blog, I wanted to tell you what a great day it was to go to Gene Russell’s Diesel Garage in NC.  He has stuff all over the lot, he took time off from his schedule and busy day to help me find the things I wanted, gave me advise I really needed and the weather for lurking around a place like that was just the best ever.  I can’t wait to go back again one day, make this a place to go for Detroit Diesel 2 stroke parts, call first to make sure he has something though, then enjoy a planned day trip trip to his shop and meet a great friendly guy and work staff.

Remember everyday to tell those you love and mean it!

Garylee